Greetings Nan, List
Nan wrote: I have a couple of replies. One, the costs of high end commercial food isn't as expensive as feeding raw consistantly. Maybe some people don't have the money to feed raw (our breeders food bill went up $300 a month OVER what they were spending before when they went to raw--they also serve kibble). Out here in CA people are hurting more and more as the government, gasoline, etc. takes more of our paycheck each week.
dru/shannon replies: Anyone can feed one cat for the price of high end commercial. i am not working and my Hubby is in school full time. If we are managing anyone can. There is a carnivore food supply list on Yahoo (broken into areas), they buy in bulk from restraunt suppliers, you learn to shop for sale meat and parts that are not commonly sold but are great for your cat (rmb's etc.), and become very creative. It is my opinion that if you can afford a cat, vet bills, etc. you should be able to afford to feed them a proper diet. Keeping the amount of cats you own to what you can afford is an important part of being a responsible owner. i am aware of economic struggles and have decided not to take in more animals and to hold off on breeding for these very reasons. i simply do not have the money to provide more cats with what i believe to be the best for them.
Nan wrote: Even in the wild, animals need vegie matter (usually grass and herbs) to help their digestion. No animal eats raw meat alone with nothing else in the diet. That's not their natural diet. They also eat the bones, beaks, and organ meats, etc. in the wild. Ground up bones (bone meal) is very important as a calicum source.
dru/shannon replies: You are correct that _some_ animals require vegetables. Cats and dogs are carnivores (obligate) and any grass/herbs taken are not for nutrition. i do provide "cat grass" and Catnip for him but, as i said, this is not for nutrition reasons. Cats avoid stomach contents and when they do not it is generally not enough content to make much of a difference in nutrients. Dogs and wolves shake out the stomach contents before consuming or avoid the contents entirely. *laugh* my boy also gets bones, beaks, and organ meat as it is available, whether or not he eats it or leaves the "spare parts" is another story hehe. i do not grind, he gets either whole prey or prey model (large peices including bones). The benefit of him ripping, tearing flesh/muscle and chewing thru the bones is something that i find to be very important. His shoulders, jaws etc. should have this exercise and i have seen a remarkable difference in his muscle tone and strength. There is also nothing as satisfying for me to see the joy he now has during meal-time and after working (tearing flesh and crunching thru bone) for his meal! i do not provide him with bone meal as he gets bone to meat ratio that is sufficient for his calcium needs. i am very careful about what he is fed, what the ratio's are, and am aware of what he needs according to the information available.
Nan wrote: In the wild and outdoors, cats only live for about 7 years (estimated by animal experts) so it is a possibility that we don't have data enough to know whether an all raw meat diet is healthy for them or not. I've heard and read (online)some strong rebuttals by researchers to the contrary of that position (only raw food) recently so if they don't know, neither do we.
dru/shannon replies: Just wondering if you can cite resources for this info. i am aware that life span is shorter in wild cats but have never heard this argument based only on diet. It would be unfair to contribute early death only to diet without considering disease, the food chain (these animals in particular being prey and hunted), dealing with the elements, and other vast reasons for death. If you have articles etc, i would love to read them. As for raw food being "healthy" for an obligate carnivore ...i believe that by simply classifying them as such we have determined that meat is not only healthy but necessary for their survival. As with any subject i do not rely on any "researchers" opinion. i have no idea who they are and what studies they have done, without the studies etc. in front of me i do not have a rebuttal. i have done sufficient studies of my own and decide which opinion i value based on who has done these studies and whether or not the opinion coincides with my own research. i am satisfied with my decision and do not judge others on what they do with their animals. All i offer is encouragement to research on your own and make decisions you can live with. It is not common for me to trust someone and their opinion simply because they claim to be an expert *shrug* be that a vet or any other person. As i have seen mentioned in another post, fact is vets only have a few hours dedicated to nutrition and are often wrong about these subjects.
Nan wrote: Organ meat is known to carry most of the poisons that animals take into their bodies or what they may have acquired due to disease. So that's not a good choice, but I see organ meats for sale at the raw meats sites. Anything, chemical or otherwise, that we put into our bodies, our organs process so feeding organ meats are questionable. They used to think that liver and heart meat were good for us, but I found out when the women of my family went through a 20 yr. DES trial-- through UCLA and Dr. Leo Lagasse, the highest regarded national researcher of DES and other chemicals given to expectant mothers from 1945 through 1964, that organ meats aren't safe for anyone. Even organically raised animals have issues with their organs because of their natural purpose.
dru/shannon replies: i understand this argument and your strong personal feelings due to your own experience. All i can say is that the world as a whole is constantly bombarded by chemicals and risks. All i can do is minimize these risks as best i can. Thru my own research i have found organs to be necessary to my cats health and i am satisfied with my decision. i do this with my children, with my animals, and with myself. Research the pros and cons and make the best decisions possible for our wellbeing.
Nan wrote: That and many other reasons has made me hesitate to feed my cats an all-raw diet. Cats do need a good source of fiber that they might not be able to get with only lean raw meat...even when enhanced with taurine and vitamins. My vet has advised against all raw for those and other reasons. I am not a opponent of the raw food diet. I just have a problem with the all-or-nothing militants who claim that its "my way or the highway" without having years of research to back their ideas up. Even the researchers and Vets are in a turmoil as to what is right to feed a companion animal. So many different opposing opinions out there.
dru/shannon replies: This is a personal decision that i respect. i only offer my experience and what i have learned. i advocate species appropriate diet but am far from militant in _any_ area of my life and this includes strong opinion/belief. As i am ever changing, growing, and expanding my knowledge nothing is ever set in stone and it is not prudent to have this attitude as it closes one off to new knowledge.
Nan wrote: As an aside, but still on topic, before we changed over to the high end commerical food, we were talking about this on Bengals-L. A website was posted and suggested to breeders and bengal owners to read before changing to another brand of food. I recommend it to all of you. >snip<
dru/shannon replies: Thanks Nan, i am on Bengals-L and have been for quite some time. i do read any links sent on feline nutrition.
Regards, dru/shannon
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