A great thread!
This has been a subject that has played on my mind for some time now too.
One reason for dipping back into the EG cats is to obtain a new line/different genes. Secondly, there are certain traits that sometimes get lost and are hard to put back in, like the ocelli, the pelt, the short fat tails and of course, the very wild look. I think those are reasonable reasons for using the lower gen cats, but I do appreciate what you say about the EG's ending up in rescue centres and there is a strong likelihood that this will be the case in a few years time due to the current 'trend' (again) for the EG's.
The greatest worry comes for the very EG cats. The ALC's, which of course do NOT make good pets usually, and the same applies for a lot of the F1's also. It is those in particular that are at higher risk and I wholly agree with your concerns.

I wonder what other folks think?

_________________
Best Wishes,
Karen <UK>
http://www.suntouchedbengals.com
http://www.bengalbreedersunited.co.uk

_________________
Best Wishes,
Maddy

Very interesting thread Charmaine. I will follow this debate with great interest. Apologies in advance as my "b" key is kinda stuck, and I don't have the time to correct all the missing "B"s or other typos.

Whilst I am not a Bengal breeder (although one day I may like to become one), I am a lifelong cat lover and a Bengal enthusiast, and I am also a molecular geneticist, so I have a keen interest in the science of breeding. I own 2 SBT Bengals, and I am about to purchase my 2nd F2 pet boy after sadly losing my first due to illness. I fully respect that some of you may be of the opinion that he will be some kind of "trophy pet", but the same could be said of any Bengal - at the end of the day a moggy could suffice us all as pets/breeding cats. We all have the right to choose the EG cat, as we have the right to choose the SBT Bengal above the common moggy - it's down to personal choice and personal responsibility. I certainly am well aware of the responsibility I am taking on from previous experience, and I am both motivated and committed to doing so. I will love and care for my new F2 cat with the same dedication I have done every other cat I have owned since childhood, and I understand exactly how different he will be to an SBT.

I have spoken to many breeders in my search for the right cats (both SBTs and EGs), and surfed countless breeder websties and (very) broadly speaking in my experience I have noticed that breeders seem to fit into one of 3 categories:

1) Those who have a progressive selective breeding program based on introducing desirable traits into their ongoing lineage. This group can be further subdivided into those who use a high degree of line breeding (which simultaneously speeds up the recombinance and inheritance of both desirable traits (eg type & coat pattern/texture) and undesirable traits (eg defects) at both the genetic and phenotypic level - a subject closely related to Karen's other thread on this page), and those who do not use excessive line breeding but work from a more diverse gene pool to achieve the same goal - albeit at perhaps a slower pace whilst reducing the risk of genetic defects.

2) Those who have a non-progressive selective breeding program which whilst similar to the above category in selective strategy, generally does not lead to the creation of an ongoing lineage, (ie lines are being periodically replaced rather than progressively enhanced).

3) Those that have programs which do not seem to be based heavily on selectivity of desired "breed standard" traits or avoidance of undesireable traits other than perhaps coat pattern, producing cats of poor "type", with no obvious progression of the breed standard.

NB I know it's more complex than this, but for argument's sake I have oversimplified my observations intgo these categories.

In addition to this I have noticed that these 3 broad categories apply to breeders working purely with SBTs and those also working with early generation cats.

So to come back to the point of discussion I think the most pertinent question is WHY are breeders working with EG cats?

For breeders in the first 2 categories there is a valid agrument for introducing further desirable traits with an ultimate view of improving the SBT, (either within their own line - mostly category 1 breeders - or via sales of their cats to other breeders - mostly category 2 breeders) which obviously has a valid counter argument depending on perspective. I don't feel there is a real "right"or "wrong" in this regard just difference of opinion. My concern is for the breeders in category 3 which to be honest, seems to be on the increase to me. If anything it is these breeders jumping on the EG bandwagon with no obvious drive to improve the breed but seemingly breeding EG cats 'for the sake of it' and sometimes asking overinflated prices for their EG cats which are often of poor type for their generation, hence not offering as much to further the breed standard. (But then again the same can be said for breeders in this category not using EG cats jumping on the Bengal bandwagon).

Having said all that, breed standards appear to be fluidic over long periods. I am amazed at some of the extreme changes in type that have evolved in other breeds such as Siamese/Oriental and Persian over the last 20 or so years. Given the rapid evolution of the Bengal so far over the last 20 or so years, I wonder if this is set to continue in the Bengal also, and if so what the drive will be and where it will come from?

I think it is important that all breeders should truly understand the objectives of their breeding program (whether using EGs or not) and understand the objectives of introducing EG cats into their programs should they choose to do so and wider implications if they cannot find suitable permanent homes for the EG kittens/cats that they do not continue to work with, bearing in mind all EG males are sterile and will need to find suitable pet homes which are far fewer than the number of suitable pet homes for SBTs. Unfortunately I have no idea how this is monitored or regulated beyond the requirement for a DWA for ALCs and their F1 progeny.

However, if all cat owners took on the responsibility for the cats they own (including researching and understanding what they are taking on before they get the cat in the first place, especially if it in an EG - they are definitely not suitable pets or breeding cats for everyone, but for those genuinely willing to put in the extra effort they require to care for they are incredibly rewarding to own, and presumably also to breed from for those progressive breeders) then there would not be a problem. Sadly this seems not to always be the case.

what tends to happen to these animals? would a breeder keep it for life or try and rehome?

As a complete newbie about to get my first SBT, I hope you'll excuse me joining in here, as I really don't know much yet....

This is certainly an interesting debate tho - with some important themes - choice, responsibility, money, the draw of owning a rare and very special pet - and of course welfare - probably the primary concern for most of us here.

It seems like we are NOT talking about people like Thundercat - who know are taking on an EG knowing plenty about their needs as well as their desirable wild characteristics (grrr!)

But it is hard to see people taking on ANY animal - and I've seen it particularly with horses (and dogs) in the past where well meaning novices, usually with plenty of money (!) want to take on a young, well bred (usually also very expensive!) horse. It's not just about the kudos - they often naively truly believe (alarmingly incorrectly!) they are equipped to handle and train the animal and give it all the care and attention it needs - and to manage and resolve any behavioural problems which arise!

Whilst I realise breeders can only do so much in terms of vetting potential owners, contracts etc, they undoubtably have a responsibility to place EG's with people (like Thundercat) they genuinely believe can provide them with a good home. I would guess that it might be wise to home them people who already have experience of owning an SBT Bengal?? I've got no idea how much EGs would cost (but I'm guessing plenty!) - so there must be a real temptation for people to go into SB for the potential financial rewards, despite the considerable expenses involved. Greed is rarely a great motivation for anything IMHO

_________________
Best Wishes,
Karen <UK>
http://www.suntouchedbengals.com
http://www.bengalbreedersunited.co.uk

This is very true Charmaine.

Many of the ALCs/F1 being currently introduced in the UK are very closely related from one of 2 UK ALC lines which does not offer much by way of genetic diversity for the UK gene pool, but of course I am sure breeding cats are being exported from these lines also. For programs utilising more than one EG cat there is clearly less advantage on the genetic level in them being from the same line. For breeders these lines offer a very limited amount of new blood to the gene pool, despite their increasing popularity. How closely related these 2 UK ALC lines are I don't know. There are other UK EG breeders working from more diverse ALC lines from the US and Asia for example, but how closely related the US ALCs are is also difficult to trace.

I have noticed in EG pedigrees once an ALC is introduced into a pedigree then no further information on the ALC line is usually given beyond the first (or if you are lucky 2nd) ALC generation. I personally have looked into pedigrees very closely and tried to trace the lineage of my F2 cat back to the 4 closest ALCs in it's pedigree, but even after doing so (using the begalpedigree website that Elaine mentioned on another thread) I have not been able to find any information on how these ALCs are related.

Whilst I am not advocating EG breeding, I think the much bigger potential problem in general is not inbreeding with ALCs as they are used far less frquently, but inbreeding in SBTs which seems to have occurred very heavily with a couple of groups of US and Canadian breeders producing some of the nicest RW SGCH SBTs over there, and many of those lines are now in high demand and being imported. Genetic defects can run rife in such lines (I'm not suggesting that they are but that is is possible) but it is important to also check for and avoid any known health problems in these. I know all of you so far on this thread not only screen for HCM for example, but also avoid lines that carry it. Having met Madeleine and been told about the work you do with Elaine, and clearly seeing that you work closely with Charmaine I am sure you all work very ethically on this level. Also having communicated a lot with Karen I know she does too - this however is not always the case.

As Elaine has stated before recessive genes can lay dormant for many generations. If defects are introduced from inbred cats be they ALCs or SBTs they can be hard to breed out...

I think it is of great importance to research pedigrees for several generations for both SBT and EGs for breeding purposes. I do this purely out of personal interest even when looking for a pet because I'm a bit of a geek. But I suspect there are breeders who do not do this as thoroughly as they could, and very few pet owners who even consider it or care...

God I can waffle!!!

Looks like Karen has beaten me to it on the ALC pedigree front - took me so long to type this!!!

All the best!

Tim

Ok to follow on with this thread I am going to post this next section with kind permission of Libbie Kerr. This is a question & answer section on her site, Libbie has been a breeder of Bengals for 20 years & I think her experience speaks for itself............

Pat:
One of the things I was surprised to learn from you Bengalites is the frequency and need to repeatedly dip back into the wild stock.


Libbie:
I do not agree that most Bengal breeders feel a need to repeatedly dip back to the wild stock... I certainly do not and neither do a lot of breeders. Recessive genes are brought out by selective breeding. While there are breeders who continue to breed to the Asian leopard cat, TICA itself has placed the Bengal in the category of ESTABLISHED BREED with no need of further out-crossing. Jean Mill came out several years ago with an editorial request for breeders to put a date on the stopping of the out-crossing. This is controversial... and some very strong feelings are aroused when the topic is brought up. Personally, I feel that continuing to breed to the Alc does not help our breed. Thus I work with later generations.
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Pat:
I would think that necessity would make it a continual project to 'breed for health,' as you have not yet stabilized the breed.


Libbie:
Again, I agree with you that to continue to breed out does not stabilize the gene pool and creates issues that are hard to track and resolve. Those who say that hybridization is necessary for health reasons do not put value or understand the dynamic of selective breeding. This is stated by people who have early generation cats and not necessarily found to be true.

Pat:
Also, I wonder if that hybridization is not the source of your special food needs for Bengals (at least your F1, F2s)...as infertility in early crosses is a given, surely one could assume there would be other 'down sides' as well.


Libbie:
It more than likely is. But I feel Science Diet Growth dry and Nutro Max.... I find the temperament of the foundation cats to be way to leery of humans and to perhaps cause them undue stress when asked to live in human environments. Remember, the Asian leopard cat has survived by avoiding humans and we are trying to produce an interactive confident cat... this takes, by genetic reasoning and anecdotal evidence, three generations. I personally have observed that the shy cats seem to have a weaker immune system and fail to thrive. Over the years I have eliminated shy cats from my breeding program and coincidently, have done so by breeding for health!

Pat:
Weeding those out and picking up the apparently healthy direction must be a very demanding pursuit. For that reason alone, developing knowledgeable and reputable breeders for your breed must be a primary responsibility in protecting and nurturing the Bengal as a breed.


Libbie:
The popularity of the Bengal has brought in many, many new to breeding individuals with no training or mentoring. Our breed has grown at a tremendous rate... and is the driving force of TICA in many ways. This is sad to me, because what tends to happen is young, untested-genetically animals are placed in breeding programs with novice breeders and we have problems. I find that until you have a cat's grandchildren you do not know what is carried, and even then you are making your best guess.

In conclusion, I would say I feel we should be breeding for is health/temperament... and I feel the two go hand in hand. I have found over the years of breeding Bengals that one often selects the other.

Health selection should be our top consideration.... I am not wanting to create a pro/con debate here, so please understand that my view is not shared by all Bengal breeders.... but I am confident of my experience

Hi Charmain,

This is a very interesting follow - up. I wish I had something further to add, as I have some thoughts, but not being a breeder myself I feel that it's not really my place to say.

I am very keen to hear what the various EG breeders have to say on this though. There are many in the UK and even more in the US who I'm sure have some very interesting counter arguments to make in this healthy debate....

Everyone is entitled to their opinion after all.... I hope this thread keeps going. It is a topic very dear to my heart.


All the best

Tim

Hi, i am not a breeder but i do own a darling little F2 boy, Rudy. I also have 2 SBT Bengals a boy Shiloh and a girl Darcy...
I have had my oldest SBT Bengal Shiloh for 15 months now since he was 14 weeks old and i love him dearly as i do all of them...
Before buying Rudy i spent a good year researching the EG's, their behavior, their quirks, and the potential problems with bringing an EG into my home...... And i still wanted one.....

I am prepared for the problems that i may or may not encounter, but the joy of living with an EG cat far outweighs the possible mishaps we may have, IMO...

None of my babies will ever end up in rescue... In the unlikely event that anything happens to both me and my husband i have made provisions for someone who loves my cats very much to take care of them..

So for my part i am glad some breeders are working with the ALC and EG cats in their breeding programs as it enables people like me and Tim to own 1 of these often misunderstood, beautiful creatures..

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Miki & My Beloved Bengals http://mybelovedbengals.blogspot.com/

Shiloh, Darcy, Rudy The Roodster & Ozzy...