Hi again,
I have been lurking but now I need a bit of advice / thoughts /
input - again

We have tried twice to get our bengal served by a stud and despite
every sensible precaution taken re intros she hated the whole thing
and was really terrified, despite leaving her there for a whole week
on the last occasion in order to settle her.

I think she disliked the experience of being in a (very comfortable
and house-like) pen and being taken away from her own home. As soon
as she arrived she went from strong on call to completely off call
straight away. The journey was only an hour long.

I am tempted to write off the whole thing and just have her
neutered. I am unsure whether the anxiety she suffers is worth it.
It does not seem to abate with "settling in time." For now, we are
planning to try again one more time in the spring when she goes into
call again.

However, I also wondered if it might be sensible to really "go for
it" and get a stud of my own plus two further queens in order to
keep him happy enough and then cease operations after all the queens
have had a few litters - or perhaps continue in the longer term the
way that you guys do . . I dont know . . . I might get bitten by
the bug for life . . .

My question is this - if he is the only stud is it possible to keep
him in the house with the family. I would ideally prefer this as I
would like to keep him as a pet as well as a "husband" for Lyra.
What are the barriers to this? Is the spraying unbearable or is it
not too excessive if he is the only male? I know that we had entire
males as pets when I was a child (back in the dark ages before
anyone knew about cat overpopulation etc) but they were free
ranging, not confined to be indoor cats the way mine would be.

Also, is it possible that he might be able to do with less than
three queens if it was only for a couple of years before he was
nuetered and kept as a pet.

These are not plans, just ideas and queries that I am kicking around.
Any thoughts would be appreciated.

hi hows you?

i would seriously think about keeping a stud boy indoors all the time!
have you thought about a secure area straight from your house for all your babies?
then this could work for him as well.with a secure house at the end of it!
when none of your girls are in call he could have the run as well and he just sleeps somewhere different!
otherwise everything will be sprayed upon and start to get a bit putrid to say the least!
i know some people do keep boys indoors but each to there own!
this is my own opinion!
i have outdoor access for all mine and they come and go as they please.
we had a massive hail and thunder storm yesterday and where were they? playing with the hail!
they love it

Hi Gorg
Am fine if a bit frustrated with lack of kittens . . must be vicariously broody or something
hows u?

Am replying quickly as trying to catch you before you go offline.

Great ideas. Thanks
Are you saying that we could attach a pen/run to the house (I have the perfect spot actually) and all the cats could access the run at will and the tom would sleep in his own "house" at the end of the run? Does it work if he also has access to the house for cuddles and tv watching? ( A few mistakes on his part are forgivable, but not constant dousing)

that is exactly it!
he can come out when none are in call and play all together, come and go as they please including him.
i would only let him in when you are around as one of your girls could come in call and you wouldnt know he had "Had" her!
you would find they will all love it plus it does there coats good outside and gives them a bit more freedom!

cool
this could actually be workable without all the stress of trailing to outside studs.
How many queen would he need at minimum do you think?

Hi Tanith

You need 3 girls at a bear minimum to keep any stud boy happy, and even then he'll spray constantly whether indoors or outdoors until the whole area smells of him....."eau de pungent"

Unless you want your home constantly smell you'll have to contain your stud outside in his own insulated/heated quarters......trust me he'll be happier outside with his own bachelor pad, you could bring him in for a few hours at night for some company when he has no visiting ladies but he must wear some protection so you won't have any unexpected pregnancies/smelly marking issues.

If you let an entire boy loose in your home without protection you will be very sorry......he'll will mark everything without compassion like a deranged beast, and he'll do this everytime you let him in.....ask any stud owner and they'll tell you the same.

There are ways to control him indoors tho such as stud-pants.......although most of these are homemade devices they do give many studs a more comfortable life untill they're neutered, Our stud comes in at teatime untill midnight and he wears pants (i'll pm a pic if you like....sorry but I gotta preserve his dignity ). He's happy to wear them although some studs may not, Really you should just keep on trying to mate your girl.....maybe find someone who'll keep her until the deed is done.

Just the shock of being moved to a strange enviroment will knock her off call, but if left in with the stud she will come back into call after a short period.....Then if the stud is worth his salt he will take control of the situation and mating will commence shortly after!

How long has she been left with the stud/studs?

From your post it looks like the longest time with the stud is 1 week.....this just isn't long enough for her to ressume her call IMO so no wonder she won't take, We've had visiting queens knocked off call a few times now and I feel if you just take them out after the week and send them home to return when she calls again you'd be in the same situation again.....in other words she needs to be left with the stud until she ressumes calling, This will produce a calmed successful mating for sure.....unless there's an under-lying problem, which is very doubtful!

Remember she is a maiden queen and needs to be treated as such.......any stress even during pregnancy especially in the last few weeks could result in miscarriage/absorption.

Good luck and I Hope this helps you a little in deciding your next
step!

p.s forgot to say......keeping a stud has other issues too that you may want to consider, Just like a cockerel crows in the morning they let rip and howl their lungs out like you wouldn't believe even if they have plenty of girls to attend to......they always want more!

heh
we live in the middle of nowhere surrounded by bellowing cows and bleating lambs so dawn noises are no problem. My only neighbour has dogs that bark from pre-dawn onward ready for their working day so we are all very tolerant of each other.

Re Lyra at the stud - The owners of the stud asked me each time to take her away - by the 2nd try I was quite happy to be heartless and leave her there as long as nesc but they werent keen. She was left the first time for 4 nights and the 2nd time for 7/8 nights. It was the stud owner that felt that she was not going to ever settle.

I am really only mulling over the idea of a stud and all the attendant complications - more queens etc.

To expand on the plan suggested by Gorg, here is my thinking - please do me a favour and disabuse me of any misconceptions:

Bear in mind, I would only be wanting the stud to "work" for 2 / 3 years max.

If we got a boy kitten it would be a few months before he started to strut his stuff.

The run would be attached to the house. If he turned out to be a spray monster we could either contain him in the run or expand / build him a new one - the bachelor pad you recommended. If he didnt turn into a spray monster he could have mainly free range unless the girls were in call. If he does need a bachelor pad, would a moggie neuter be advisable to keep him company? Or would he just eat it? He would have plenty 1 to 1 attention but I wouldnt like him to be lonely at any point.

I am assuming that I would have about a year from him maturing (about 7 months onwards) to collect the 2 extra girls he would need.

If it all turned into a huge nightmare we could have all of them dressed and keep them as beloved pets with access to the attached run but we would have to be quickish re our decision re the boy as too long as a stud might make him a permenant spray monster.

The wasted expense of extra runs already built could then be used to help out the cats protection league, keeping random pets in etc.

Please please please pm me the studpants pic asap!

Hi Tanith

I agree with Meemonkey. I would think very carefully before getting a boy.

Boys not only spray a bit/a lot but the smell is really excessive/offensive and they produce a smell I would not like to have anywhere near my house. The odd tom cat round your property has nothing on the smell a stud cat can produce, I suppose it is just the quantity all in one place that makes them so smelly. Their yowling is every bit as noisy as queens on call and they don't have the quiet few weeks like girls. I know you live in the country but can you put up with the noise day and night in your "attached" run. Its not only a "dawn" thing. You may be lucky and have a boy that doesn't spray and doesn't yowl but the chances are that he will. By the way girls on heat also spray and often "miss" the litter tray.

A good boy and some quality girls are a very expensive purchase and need to be thought long and hard about.
If you are going to have three girls instead of just the one, then you need to adopt a more serious approach to breeding. It is not that I think you are not serious, I only mean that there are more issues to think through.

You need to be knowlegeable about pedigrees, and make a few good decisions regarding where you are going with the breed. Some questions you need to ask yourself:-
Do you want to concentrate on a particular colour? Do you know the type of kittens that sell? Can you deal with the great British public? Do you have time at home to spend with kittens to socialise them properly or time to spend with owners and prospective kitten buyers? I know you work from home but can you work with 6 kittens running riot in your house/office or even 12 kittens when the last lot haven't sold. Can you clean out numerous litter trays every day? Do you think you could hand-rear kittens if you need to (2 hourly feeds), or look after sick/dying ones? Do you like holidays? Do you have a cohort of willing helpers who you trust to look after your growing brood if you go away? What happens if you get ill? Is your husband/family amenable to the disruption in their lives? Many good relationships can founder if one partner becomes very involved with cat breeding and the other is not interested to the same extent. etc. etc.
Not something you should make a snap decision over just because you are desperate to mate your queen and have some kittens.

Some folk do years of research into pedigrees, attend loads of shows and get experienced in what a "good" Bengal is before they take the plunge.

In the meantime find a suitable stud boy for your girl, one that you have the option to leave her with for a least a few weeks so she has a chance to settle down.

Even if you got a boy kitten now you would have to wait a long time until he is ready. I would suggest more than 7 months. You also need the girls to be ready to mate, from when your boy is ready, so they would need really to be the same age, so perhaps at least a year from when they arrive before you start. Getting the best kittens from breeders may also take some time. There are long waiting lists for cats with good pedigrees and other breeders ready to step in if a wonderful kitten is produced. I know you may say you only want to be in it to produce some pet kittens but if you choose a better cat at the start then you will be less likely be standing at shows with the also-rans when some of your kittens start getting shown. Even if you don't personally want to show, pet owners like to show off their babies.

You then have the problem of two immature cats who don't know what they are doing and you mind find the whole procedure will have more of a delay. If you buy an already working stud, a working stud may take a while to settle in and may never be the pet cat you desire, all depending on what he is used to. There is also the issue of what to do if your stud cat who you have nurtured for the last year, turns out to be infertile. The breeder may take him back but would you want to give him back? and where does that leave your girls?

Bengals are an evolving breed, buying older 'active' cats may be cheaper but you will soon find yourself 'behind' the times as more fantastic cats are imported and the breed takes a huge lurch forward, leaving you behind. Someone selling an older cat on the 'active' would need to have a very good reason for selling before I would be interested, as it tends to be cats who the breeder has decided do not make "her/his" particular grade, so why would you use them. This is also the reason why Bengal breeding is so expensive, as the cats even two years ago, are so much different than those today.

I would think long and hard and leave the decision off for another few months, until your queen has settled and the 'crisis' you are in at present has resolved. If you feel the same then, by all means source some girls and a boy and start breeding but the pressure won't be on and you can take your time choosing the best ones available. There will not be a deadline.

It would be terrible to grab some kittens and a year later find they are not what you really want to breed. A very expensive mistake. You can also evolve your runs/pens etc. to what suits you best over the course of time instead of rushing the whole thing just because your first queen is having a slight problem at the moment.

I know I seem to have emphasised the problems but better to think about them now than in a years time after you have made the commitment. Breeding is fantastic for some, as it suits them and they can cope, but turns into a nightmare for others, who perhaps hadn't really thought through the pitfalls.

Don't rush in to anything.

Elsa

yea,
I absolutely agree with you and meemonkey, and Gorge, and . . everyone I was already thinking along these lines last night after I last posted. Like I said earlier, I was just mulling it over to see what you guys said.

Some other people (on another forum ) have said that it would be fine, and that the problems of having to send ones queen away is why they ended up with thier own stud, but I dont think I want to risk it NOT being fine and waste a lot of time and £ on something that is too major for an amatuer like me, only to end up with a very very expensive neutered bengal pet, that I had (even worse) made temporarily unhappy with my incompetance.

Gorg is also right in the way it could work out, and it may do so in the future, but I dont think I am ready yet to have a stud around the house. Blimey, I havent even dealt with my first litter of kittens yet . . .

I think that we will stick with the plan of trying to get Lyra mated again in spring. I may look into another stud whos owners would be willing to keep her for more than a week.

If she is still unhappy we will neuter her and perhaps look into taking on a bengal neuter that is looking to be re-homed and simply enjoy them as the wonderful pets that they are.

If this, the worst case scenario happens, and we still want to have kittens and multiple cats around, I already have been offered the chance to foster kittens for the Cat Protection League and I am know that this is equally rewarding and they help out a lot with advice, support and even help to build any necesary runs.

I will keep you posted.
Thanks guys - all

well guys, all I can say is, be prepared to be bored witless with lots and lots and lots and lots . . . of pedigree related questions in the couple of weeks after Christmas.

Bloomng heck, I had started out thinking it would be nice to get a wee pedigree cat so that we could play with some nice litters of kittens and be sure that they would get decent homes as valued pets. I realised pretty early on that it would not be so simple.

It is definately not like getting a nice, fairly well-bred, well put together mare and sending her to a nice, fairly well-bred, well put together stallion and everything is hunky dory. Who would have thought that cats are more complicated than horses?

At least I can hope that any newb reading my posts may find some value and forewarning through my painfully public vertical learning curve.

Saw some lovely black kittens in a pet shop (shudder) yesterday and was very tempted to abandon all my plans and "rescue" them. Luckily reason prevailed and I put my broodiness on hold - for now. Also, while I hung around looking presents for pet owners I overheard a sweet girl and her very nice parents eyeing up the kittens and having serious discussions . . so fingers crossed.

Have a great Christmas all.
/me affects "Arnie voice" . . . "I'll be back . . "

Hi, just read all the above. As a matter of interest Tanith our boy has successfully lived indoors all his 3 year life (he does have a run etc) and he doesn't spray..yet. BUT to achieve a status quo we have to play careful musical chairs with the cats literally all the time to ensure he always has his own space and appropriate company- which is ok for us as we 'grew into' the situation of numerous cats, but others may find it an unbearable pressure. Certainly some friends of ours, even cat people think we're crazy.

As well as all the the excellent points already made you need to bear in mind that if you buy a boy now, at an early stage, you will effectively be fixing your breeding plan in a certain genetic place - ie with his genes. Ok if you've got the right boy straight off. Not ok if you haven't - as ALL your kittens may have the same deficiencies.

Much better to try a girl with different boys first and then choose to keep a male kitten yourself later if you can or to buy from a line you have seen for yourself to be a suitable mating. If you can get kittens in the show ring you will get a critique of their standard and find out if you are heading down the right road. In other words even if you CAN cope with a stud now it may be better to wait.

I agree with Meemonkey that you should keep trying with Lyra if possible..even try her with a different boy with another breeder. There's a finite point with all this of course, ie health factors and as you say the apparent distress to Lyra.

Unfortunately lack of 'success' with Lyra would not be unusual - just one of those things.

If you really want to breed and get nowhere with Lyra by the summer I would consider purchasing another girl instead of a boy. This time from a breeder who would put the new girl to a stud boy of their own and be involved in the process of breeding and selection. I'm sure you would know the names to look for having accrued the experience you have so far. You could have Lyra spayed and introduce her to a new girl as a companion cat at an early stage, a good solution for both cat and new kitten.

Hope you don't mind my adding these thoughts. Have only just got over the horror of a house move with all the cats in the summer so only now getting back to normal

Hi Rajique - long time no see

Thanks for your excellent thoughts.

I think that even if we did ever get to the stage of having our own stud and I wanted to try to keep him inside as much as possible, I would need to have a run ready for him to a) get some peace and quiet in when needed and b) be banished to if he turned into an evil spray monster

The thing is, he would be in the house while he was a wee one anyway and then he would return to the house after he was dressed in a couple of years so and he would get plenty of company if he was an outside stud cat for a while so I am no longer too concerned re him being lonely. But, whatever, that is a long way off.

I have been mulling all this over and we will try again with Lyra in the spring. If it doesnt work we will just forget it and perhaps get a different queen or just give up altogether.

What is a bit of a blow is that I have already paid the stud fee and we wont get it back if I take Lyra to a different stud - perhaps with owners that would let her stay for several weeks to "settle" her ready for her next call. It is definately the travelling that is knocking it off.

I am somewhat irritated with the stud owner as they, when handing her back to my OH, rather sniffily said, "she wasnt in call, we thought Tanith would know her own cat" or words to that effect. It wasn't nastily meant but it did get on my wick a bit. Nvm.

I think that it would have been wise of me, however, to have had a run for Lyra so that she became used to being outside sometimes. I have made her into too much of a pampered princess.

I fear it will be a case of writing off that stud fee but I am reluctant to do so as I am a mean/thrifty (?) scot

As I had said in a previous post, perhaps the way forward for me and my kitten ambitions is to offer help to the Cats Protection League - we have the time, space and £.

In the meantime I am going to post a question on pedigrees. Be prepared for many, many tedious questions . . . .
Btw - Merry Christmas xxx