Frankly, I'm appalled that anyone with any supposed claim to any form of knowledge of psychiatry, psychology, or what practicing professionals should be doing would come in here spouting the poison that has been put forth.

The truth, I can handle. Such an astounding level of ignorance, not so much.

I would read as much as you can about breeding and visit the breeder as much as you can so you can get a sense of what your girl will go through. There will be surprises as it is, so the more you can learn as soon as you can will help you help your girl.

I know it would be heartbreaking for me to go through a pregnancy with one of my girls only to give her to someone else for months at a time. I would find that very difficult and I know the cat would not understand. That is something to really consider.

At some point it was mentioned that this is a good arrangement for the cat because they will have a family the whole time and that will be good for them for retirement(or something like that). I have only had retired queens, after they were spayed, and they fell into their new home and pet life with me quite easily and happily. I find that argument for this type of arrangement absurd based on my experience with retired girls.

Good luck with your decision.

I am, for all intents and purposes, entirely new to this forum; (aside from general lurking). I am responding as an entirely unbiased third party and animal lover. I have no allegences and virtually no conversation with anyone involved in the afore mentioned thread.

That being said; I am utterly appalled at the incredulous and utterly outright subversive comments made by linden. I do not see why any rational human being, especially one whom professes to care about animals, would go out of his/her way to greet rational, knowledgeable incite, with such poor class. In reading EVERY POST, one can quickly surmise that there are no "personal attacks" that are not, at least initially, instigated by linden or bittel. Constructive critisism was given from the very first reply. Grieving is not an acceptable excuse to attack people that are trying to help you; no more than is ignorance an acceptable excuse for animal abuse.

Linden, I understand that the well-being of your daughter, family, and personal sanity run paramount to all else. But please, for the sake of your cat, do not put her through this situation. Perhaps the terms of the contract cannot be altered in a way that satisfies both your needs. Perhaps the best solution is to return the cat in question to the breeder, then find a pet kitten whom can bond with your daughter and yourself. You cannot "make the best of this situation," clearly this situation is not the best of animal husbandry.

I am writing this because I honestly and truely feel empathy for your cat and situation. I wish you and your family the best of luck, health, and happiness. I believe you are a good person and will eventually come to a reasonable solution which is mindful of the animals well being, as well as satisfying your personal feelings.

I am trying to do my best for everybody, including the cat. With all of you saying "think of the cat" "think of what you're putting the cat through" "think of the cruelty to the poor cat" (along with the judgement on my parenting and how bad that is, etc). I say I *am* thinking of the cat. And my daughter. As wrong as I have been told that is.

Yes, I can hand her back. What would that achieve? Do any of you really think that Kira would be better off if I did that? She would be back on this programme and sent out to another family for exactly the same purpose, she would be confused and upset about being with us for this time and then being sent away, my daughter would be distraught, I would still feel utterly awful, Linden would still be gone (and so would Kira), I would be out of pocket (least of the issues, I know), and so on and so forth. I get to go forward with a clear conscience that I am not a party to this scheme? No, I get to go forward wondering if I put her in a worse position with a family that won't love her or look after her as I can. The ONLY way forward that I can see that would satisfy everyone on here is going to cost an insane amount of money, and yet I still haven't ruled that out as an option (nor is it my intent to be a people pleaser - I'm in this for Kira, and my family). The only way that I have any control over the fate of this cat, and ensure that she has the best possible future going forward, is to keep her with us. Where she is already very happy, and where we already adore her. One way, or another. Uprooting her now would just be the first cruelty - to everyone. It would not in the least change the plans that the breeder has for her, apart from the location and the people involved.

I'm sure that people on here will still take this as me refusing to listen to reason. So be it.

I was never doing this to get a cheap cat. A full price cat would have been fine - there weren't any available. Even if I couldn't afford a full price cat, my ex-husband offered to buy one for us because he also felt that it would be in Alyssa's best interests. It's not about that, yet that is one of the things that seems to have also been suggested. This is purely about trying to do the right thing by all parties involved. I signed this contract to start with because of the information I had at hand. Yes, I was given good information here, but it was quite a while before anyone gave me anything actionable that I could work with going forward, and prior to that there was a lot of judgement and questioning of my character and morals (from some parties). I reserve the right to defend myself, much as I would defend anyone whom I saw being unfairly attacked (such as bettel). If that makes me a bad person, so be it. I asked for a little kindness to each other. It shouldn't have even had to be asked.

FWIW, I spoke to a different local breeder today about this. She said that she does the same thing, and has had several families take second queens under the same programme, and is thrilled with the results for the queens and the kittens. She mentioned that it is done by several breeders that she knows, and seems to be gaining popularity as a generally positively viewed option for the cats and the breeders, and families seeking a show quality bengal without the price tag (NOT why I signed up, I have made it very clear that the lifetime checks for HCM were the draw card, and the availability timing). She then had one of her families call me to talk about their experiences, which seem to be very positive for them. Some "annoyances", nothing too bad (mainly to do with calling noise, and needing people to be careful with cats and external doors), but every cat is different. I am not saying this to defend a position, nor am I saying that I am refusing counsel from those that have offered. I am offering information as it comes to me. This doesn't mean that I have made a decision one way or the other.

Believe it or not, I have a conscience.

I find it entirely at odds with itself when I read a comment claiming I'm subversive, obviously not rational, of poor class, but a good person.

Hi linden.

Firstly, I really am very sorry to hear about your sad loss. I hope in time that the pain will ease for both you and your daughter.


I wanted to step in here and offer advice from MY experiences with entire queens. I am NOT judging you, neither am I trying to change your mind, BUT I feel you need to be aware of the sheer reality of what living with an entire Bengal female can be like, and the potential stress that you could be under in the future.


I won't repeat the obvious, as you have been given some fantastic advice already on this thread, and advice given by VERY experienced Bengal owners. PLEASE do not dismiss any of this advice.


OK, I will tell it like it is, and hopefully make you aware of what may be in store for you with an entire queen.


1. Once a female Bengal is in heat, she will most likely be VERY vocal, and her personality WILL change. Instead of the loving kitty that you have come to know, she will change overnight into a hormonal noisy cat desperate to find a male to mate with.

2. You may have to put up with this behaviour for a few months at least, depending at what age she comes into heat. She may keep your daughter awake with the noise, and believe me, some queens can be VERY noisy!

3. After her first heat, the second may be even stronger. She may start spraying by now, and spray she will, and
ANYWHERE. Up against walls, curtains, power sockets, kitchen counters...even outside your daughter's bedroom. Are you prepared for this, and the hygiene concerns that WILL affect your daughter, especially if she steps in cat pee?

4. Once a female Bengal starts spraying, the likelihood is that she will NOT stop even after she is spayed, unless you are very lucky. The more litters she has the more likely it is that she will spray for longer, and spray even MORE.

5. Every time your kitty goes to the breeder, she is at risk of picking up infections. She will be VERY stressed at having to move home multiple times. She may have problems during pregnancy/birthing, that might require her to stay at the breeders for even longer. Can you cope with this? Can you cope with her returning to you with a health issue that will cause you and your daughter much stress and worry?

6. If your kitty starts calling at a very early age (from as young as 4 months old), have you thought about the possibility of (open/closed) pyometra? This disease can be fatal if not treated immediately and you must be aware of the symptoms to look out for.

7. Some Bengal females (ESPECIALLY neutered queens) can be VERY territorial as they get older. This will be a major deciding factor on whether you can home another cat, as some Bengal females simply will not want to welcome other cats into their territory, especially Bengal queens; whether entire or neutered.

8. Have you thought about problems during birthing with your cat? Sometimes undetected health problems CAN arise, and worse case scenario, your cat may not survive a birth if there are complications. Are you really prepared for this?

9. You have a a much-loved member of the family now and that is great, BUT, her character might change as soon as she starts mating. The once loving and friendly cat you bought as a 'pet' may well become aloof, carry on spraying and may never accept another cat into your home.

10. You MUST look at this long term. Your cat WILL change as soon as her hormones kick in, and she may even show signs of aggression every time she comes back to you after having a litter. She will be frustrated, and she may well come back on heat as soon as 5 days after her last litter. This may mean an even noisier cat, more spraying and an even less loving cat until she mates again.


I have not posted the above because I have nothing better to do. I am actually not even trying to put you off. I have owned/bred Bengals for the best part of 17 years now, and I KNOW what I am talking about. I have 8 Bengal pets with me. Five of them are my ex-queens, and four of them still spray now. They always will, but at least I don't have young children to think about, and I am well used to the constant cleaning and trying to get rid of the smell. The smell of spraying Bengal queens (or ex-queens) can sometimes be as bad (if not worse) than Bengal studs. The smell can be worse than a dozen opened nappies/diapers left lying around, and believe me, entire girls are relentless when it comes to spraying!

Anyway, I can't agree with your 'arrangement' for one minute I am afraid. For any breeder to let a pet owner take responsibility of a queen is irresponsible IMO. I do think that the only person to 'gain' from this is your breeder, and I do worry about what you may have to face in the future; especially your daughter. I would urge you to think very hard about this situation, as IMO it is FAR from ideal for you, and if your only purpose was to home a new kitty for you and your daughter, then I truly think that a kitten without a 'breeding contract' would have been the best way forward for you both. I am saddened that ANY breeder would even contemplate homing kittens under such a contract especially knowing your sad circumstances. To me, that just isn't right. It isn't right at all.

I wish you luck, I hope you make the right decision for your kitty and for your daughter, and finally, I hope you stay around on here. You will always get great advice and support, even if it's not what you want to hear.

_________________
Best Wishes,
Maddy

Agree completely Maddy.
Entire cat urine has a completely different smell from neutered cat urine, far more pungent, far stronger and far more long-lasting. Even litter boxes of entire cats can really stink despite being cleaned out meticulously.
Spraying can be very obvious wet patches, or it can just be a small mist of fine droplets, both can be equally as deadly smell wise, but the droplets can be very difficult to see especially when dried in. Keeping a house smell free with entire cats is very diffcult and it is why many breeders end up placing their entire Bengal cats into outside accomodation. It is not that they do not love them, nor that they are just using them as "livestock", it is just that the smell, noise and hassle of managing often warring queens can just be too much, in your average home.
Fine if you are deaf, with no sense of smell, and no friends, but otherwise...

Thank you.

Please don't take this as a response to the last few posts. I appreciate them, and the advice given therein.

This thread has taken an incredibly painful experience, and made it unbearable. I'm out. I'll make my decision here on in based on the information at hand, and action it accordingly. You won't hear from me again. You can all make up your own minds as to what that means, as I'm sure many will at any rate. Be that to return Kira, pay out the contract, or become the animal abuser that one member asserted I am.

FWIW, I actually do have a suitable outdoor enclosure of 7*4m in size (it used to be the garage, but has been fitted out to be comfortable to people rather than cars) that would have been absolutely fine had I required to use it (with minor adjustment, such as a scratching post and some comfortable bedding), and yes I was prepared for the hormones and actions of a queen. I'm highly anti animal cruelty, not that many members of this forum would actually seem to think possible based on the overriding assessment of who and what I am. I don't care anymore. I give up explaining or defending or whatever, I give up attempting to tell people that yes, I AM listening, you have just decided for yourselves that I am not and have judged me accordingly. Now, you guys don't get another say on the matter.

lollo, Elaine, Maddy, bettel, and one or two others, I thank you for your help.

Now I have some big decisions to make, a lot of healing to do, and a lot of people to forget.

*dust settles*

You CAN get good advice and assistance on this forum about breeding - directly from breeders, experienced owners and people that work with cats.

However one must be aware that ''hobby breeding'' in its many forms (sometime considered BYB depending on situation and welfare of kittys) is never something to just blunder into blindly and certainly not BEFORE any actual impartial advice has been sought.

I hope this topic when viewed by others does not put anyone off seeking information in BCF.

- This topic stands as perfect example of how NOT to seek advice on breeding -