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Lollo

That is fair enough, however nobody on this thread has mentioned unethical or ethical breeders.

I just said that early neutering is the only way to prevent BYB.

I just think it was a little u fair to bring in HCM in a thread about early neutering when nobody was criticising anyone for doing it or not doing it.

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Lollo

I do understand, but these are my own personal frustrations of the EN 'debate' in general. The OP asked for peoples opinions - I gave mine, which includes what I have witness many a time on social mediums.

But HCM is a different argument.

It would have been fairer to state your reasons for not agreeing with it and saying that some people 'shove it down throats' and argue that to not early neuter is unethical.

I have not found it the way you have and I'm a member of a lot of breeder groups. I have, however found people opposed to it are more vocal and argumentative/defensive. Maybe less willing to accept a difference of opinion. Not referring to you here at all.

Don't really want to argue with you about it Claire as I like you (even though you chose not to have a Tonk ). I just felt HCM is not a fair argument here.

Cup of tea?

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Lollo

Thank you all for your replies/opinions I didn't think it would be so 50/50!

I hope I haven't caused any arguements that cannot be settled with a good cup of tea

haha no we're all good

nah... we are good.



Trouble is, me and Claire have some very high expectations of breeders. Although we don't necessarily agree on some finer points Like Tonks versus Bengals The best interests of the cat/kitten is always the main concern for us.

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Lollo

Yeah, we will blame TICA!

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Lollo

I must chip in hear. I am an ex Bengal breeder and now only breed my Tonks. In my last batch of kittens (2 litters born together, 13 kittens ), I had two boys that were going as pets together that, at the last minute, fell through. These two lads stayed with me through Christmas (no kittens allowed to be rehomed during this period) and January. During this time I had a couple of enquiries for these boys but when I said they would be going in for neutering prior to rehoming, the folk admitted they wanted them not just as "a companion for their girl Tonk" but to breed a litter or two. Consequently, the boys did not leave for these homes. The two boys were neutered, one has left and, hopefully, the other this weekend. Both these boys bounced back from surgery and are very big healthy boys.

Having this happen, I scheduled a meeting with the head vet/owner of my practice to discuss early s/n for the future kittens going as pets. In our discussions we talked BYB's and the situation in rescue organisations due to the influx of pets at this moment in time. My vet did admit to me that rescues are putting to sleep healthy cats and dogs due to the sheer number coming into rescue due to the economic climate although this is denied. A lot of cats are coming in pregnant or with young litters or just young litters. We also discussed the health implications and it was mainly the hypothermia and/or affect of anaesthetics reasons most older vets worry about. We discussed procedure.

Anyway, to cut a long story short, my vet and I are going to early s/n in the future. We have agreed a price. We will do first vaccinations at nine weeks, neuter/spay at twelve weeks, second vaccinations at thirteen weeks, rehome from fourteen weeks. From the cost of the spay or neuter, I will pass on £25 to the new owners, the rest of the cost will be down to me. Unneutered my kittens were £450, neutered they will be £475.

Sue that is the same timescale I worked at last litter. They bounced back so quickly. I was a nervous wreck for 24hours but the kittens were fine. Guess you have 12 weeks for that, saw your bundle on Facebook good news about your boys as well.

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Lollo

Interesting reading and I'll my tuppence.

I could probably be one of those who (looks like I) say it is unethical not to early spay/neuter. That isn't so much a judgement on others who don't but how I feel about the way I breed. I know how many dead end enquiries we've had when the potential owners find out their kitten will be neutered. I have had many then ask "so what's the difference in price?". This is more than enough to tell me that it is worth it.

I agree to a certain extent that cats being bred isn;t the worst thing that could happen but I must make a serious and valid point that breeders often don't like to discuss. We need sales. Simple as. If we can't sell our kittens then we cannot continue to breed. We show, health screen (HCM, PK-Def, stools, bloods), feed the best and keep our cats in an indoor, fully light, double glazed and central heated cattery. Breeding (especially when showing and screening) is expensive. Kittens sales do not strech anywhere near enough to cover it all. So if we sold a kitten to Mrs Smith down the street who decides to breed and sell unregistered kittens, unshown, unscreend & unvaccinated for £150 a time then we could not compete. She then sells indiscriminately to Mr Smyth in the next town and he does the same. Pretty soon we have been pushed out of the "market". It's not nice to talk about the sales and market side but it is entirely necessary. Just look at some areas of England where good breeders have been forced to stop because they just cannot breed ethically in a saturated market.

Secondly, we have a very real problem with hearth health in this breed. I do not want to have the lines I am responsible for being so widespread that I cannot control my impact on the breed. I have 2 cats of my breeding with other breeders and I know that both breeders would respect my wishes and stop working with those cats/lines if a problem was found, god forbid. Were I selling entire cats all over the place and then found a problem 5/6/7 years down the line it would simply be impossible to have any control of the situation.

On the growth side - all I can say is look at my own neuters. Our SGCA was neutered at 12 weeks and he is huge, as is our Maine Coon neuter who was also neutered at 12 weeks. I have been ESN from the beginning as my mentor has done so for, now, 14/15 years. I cannot garantee that my kittens are going to homes that will love and adore them forever but I do know they will not end up in a shed being used as a cash cow. I know they won't have a life of being passed from backyarder to backyarder. I couldn't live with myself if I found that had happened to a kitten I bred. I couldn't live with myself if I found a problem in a line from which I had sold multiple breeding cats and couldn't stop it getting worse. That is not to say I think those who don't ESN are unethical - but I would feel unethical if I didn't.

There is a page/group on facebook with lists of vets who ESN. It has surprised many to find that it is not so difficult to find a vet willing to do it. I live in Highland Perthshire and found a vet no problem. My vet worked for CPL before getting her own practice and so she was used to doing is as a matter of routine. We do not charge for the neutering and are still one of the cheapest breeders in Scotland to buy a kitten from.

Sorry if that seemed a bit rant-esque but I really do think ESN is the way forward, especially in a breed with health issues such as ours. What is the point of screening if you're not in control of your own programme?

Steven