I have been reading a lot of the information on this website and I was just curious as to how many of you breeders out there early neuter your kittens before leaving for there new home, and how many of you will let a kitten leave home entire - but will only release their papers after proof of neutering? I'm just curious as to the arguements for and against really.

Thank you in advance!

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Lollo

I am not a breeder but I was planning to be until I found that I don't think I can handle the stress involved! I have to agree with lollo! I honestly can't think of any reason not to sterilize before the kittens leave! Other than not having a vet to do it,but here in the US it is not difficult to find a vet even in my little town! I would have to take a thirty minute trip but to me that would be well worth it! I have found that a lot of breeders charge RIDICULOUS prices for spay/neuter! If I had BB spayed before bringing her home it would have cost an additional $395 when I did it my self it cost $110. That is a big price difference! To me I would rather ensure their health but having the operation before they leave rather than charge an arm and leg to have it done!

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wow, that's insane! Our breeder had to look for a vet that would do it for him for us (he usually just has a clause in his contract, but we wanted them done before we got them) and it was only an extra $130 for both kittens to be done. We didn't want the little ones to be stressed out by a surgery after moving so far away.

I forgot to mention. Withholding papers does not prevent the cat from being used to breed, it just means they cannot prove the parentage to existing kitten buyers. However, having papers would not be of any help to them either as they would say that the cat can't be used for breeding.

Withholding papers only really makes people who might have had one litter, or don't normally neuter their pets but don't breed either (they do exist not sure why they don't ).

The only way to stop Back Yard Breeders is early neutering.

Bkilgore: that price difference is a little poor i would have done the same as you the. However, do remember that some vets charge a lot more to neuter than others and it is fair for the breeder to add a bit on as they will usually stay a bit longer. I suspect she didn't want the hassle so gave you a high price to make sure you didn't go ahead. It does surprise me that there is such a huge difference in prices for neutering in the US as its quite a standard price range in the UK. It cost me £50 for boys and £60 for girls. After being on a breeder discussion group it seems to be a pretty standard range.

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Lollo

I am glad I'm not breeding atm if I'm honest as I am still not convinced by early neutering - I dare not say that line in certain places for fear of getting jumped on but I do have my reasons - below is a link to a facebook page (it is about dogs but alot of the article point towards cats aswell) there unfortunately is not enough to convince me that its best for the health of the cat. A person would not neuter a child due to it needing certain hormones to develop therefore I don't believe it should be done in cats or dogs either

https://www.facebook.com/notes/naturall ... 0162363667

Also I will say aswell - probably being controversial now lol but it seems to be this attitude of you are a bad breeder if you don't ESN and it is forced down peoples throats ....yet half the people doing this don't even HCM screen - now I advocate HCM but I wouldn't force it down peoples necks - even though tbh it should be

Its also not as simple as oh well find a vet that does - many people have been going to the same vet for years who they fully trust with their animals health and wellbeing and also have their own results for refusing to ESN.

There are also some breeders still who could also do with putting more effort into finding good homes for their cats rather then selling to the first person that wants to pay the right price - maybe if that happened consistently there wouldn't be the mess there is of people buying unneutered pets to buy from - none of the breeders I know who don't ESN have ever had this happen to them - and they are established experienced breeders.

- I am not against anyone who ESN's - but I am against those that do it preaching to others that they are unethetical if they do not.

Sorry just realised I messed up a few words in my post - hopefully its still understandable.

I noticed Lollo you include neutering in your purchase price which I commend. There are many who are saying they will only let kittens go neutered but are then adding the cost of the procedure on top of the purchase price. I don't see breeders doing that for HCM screening yearly (not any I know anyway!) - they absorb the cost themselves because they are screening for the good of the breed and the animals they produce - surely ESN should be the same too - as it is being slotted into that bracket by those who are doing it.

Unfortunately I might be cynical but I do question some of the reasoning's behind ESN - not all breeders I might add but in some quarters it seems that if a cat is ESN'd then the thought is its safe in its new home and protected - so I hope that these new homes are still being vetted just as much as they would be if they weren't.......the risk of breeding from a cat is just one thing in a very big picture when it comes to who breeders are placing their kittens with.


.....Steps off soap box.

I see both sides of this! If it were me I would go ahead with the neuter if the cats were sold as pets, which I am not sure that I would ever have sold a kitten for anything other! I don't see adding an additional cost tho! If you are going to offer it, it should be standard pricing and nota huge difference. The breeder we got BB from inflated the price by 100% she doubled the price of what her vet charges and then some. That is not right IMO! Back to the point, I see that ESN can be a great thing as far as keeping BYB and other unwanted liters from happening. I also see the benefit of having those hormones until they reach a certain age. With that being said, the most common reason people want those hormones, especially in Bengals, is because they think it will increase the size of the cat. This is not true, I have living proof of that! BB was spayed at four months and it almost 12 pounds, Jasper was neutered at 2 years and 1 week old and he is 8.6 pounds. I know it has a lot to do with genetics as well, but I don't think hormones would have covered that much weigh and heighth. I do appreciate both sides of the argument here and I think it could also be up to the buyer. I would not sacrafice loosing a good home to a kitten because they choose not to purchase a kitten that was spayed or neutered to early. That would have to be one hell of a home tho!

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A lady who had two of my boys has a BSH she cannot show due to him being early neutered and he never filled out or in to his frame properly.

Size and growth might just be one side of it or it might not - The link I posted contains a lot of independent studies and useful information.

I'm not saying that ESN is a bad thing to do but I am saying its important for each individual to do their own research and come to their own conclusions due to their findings - I've formed my opinion based on research and will not then be told that if I bred and didn't ESN I am unethical - especially by people who can't even HCM screen.

I don't think ESN makes ethical or unethical. I don't believe one way is right and the other way is wrong! I do however find that HCM screening should be put before ESN, if you can not afford to screen then you shouldn't be able to afford Spay/Neuter!

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I did extensive research before i decided to early neuter my last litter. For every site and research paper claiming Early Neutering is a good thing you will find as many that disagree. This is the same with many, many issues. There will always be those for and against. I am the only Tonkinese breeder that does early neutering as far as i know but i am members of various groups were it is discussed with both pro and against so i hear plenty of opinions on the matter.

The most common reason for not doing it, is the stunting growth. This is going to be a very difficult fact to measure as you will never know how they will have grown if they had been neutered at a different age. Parental size can be an indicator but is not an exact science so you will have variations. Not the same thing but i am 5'10" and my brother is 6'8" both of our parents are sub 5'8" and there are no other tall blood relatives.
[quote=Lacemoat]A lady who had two of my boys has a BSH she cannot show due to him being early neutered and he never filled out or in to his frame properly.
[/quote]
Again, you will not really know what they will have grown to be if they had not early neutered. I did find some research on sizes but i cannot find it now, i'll have another look for it later.

Of my last litter, i kept a girl for breeding and i sold 1 girl to a breeding programme in Holland (with the help and support of my mentor as the Dutch breeders are trying to introduce new blood into their Tonks). Both the entire girls are around 2.8kg at 9 months. I have been in touch with all of my kitten owners regularly and the 3 other girls were all above 3kg at 6 months as were the 2 boys, 1 of which is 4kg at 9 months old! My previous litter were neutered by their owners at around 6 months of age. I know that the two girls were 3kg and 3.8kg at 12 months but i do not know any other kitten weights. Interestingly, the kitten that was 3.8kg at 12 months was my tiny 55g born girly so she did very well.

Worth mentioning that Tonkinese are a smaller breed than bengals in the UK certainly so the norm for a neutered girl is around 4kg with a boy being around 4.5kg.


A lot of the information in the link provided by Claire is dog related but reading through it, some of it (not well today so i did struggle to read a lot) mentions cats as well but more as a side note. One thing that came up was that neutering female dogs can make them incontinent of urine either temporarily or permanent or in later life. In theory this is also a risk factor for cats but is rarely ever seen. Also, can happen so easily whenever they are neutered.

Another 'early neutering' disadvantage is that it is believed early neutering can make kittens behaviour to linger... that is neutered cats still exhibit behaviour that is juvenile and more associated with kittens.

The reason some vets give for not neutering early are interesting and fairly outdated really. I was told by a few vets that they wouldn't neuter before 6 months because of hypothermia and/or affect of anaesthetics. The hypothermia issue is down to the length of time they are anaesthetised for and the way the body reacts to anaesthesia is directly related to the time they are under for... so they are both linked which was explained to me by a few vets. The issue is that anaesthetcs are so much better now than they were when this 6 month rule was established as the norm. The time taken to neuter a kitten at 12 weeks as opposed to 6 months is also less so the kitten is under for slightly less time.

During my research i found that many parts of the world have been neutering cats from 8 weeks old for years. The vet i used trained in Australia and has been neutering kittens from 8 weeks old for 14 years. Apparently it is law in some states of Australia for kittens to be neutered before 12 weeks of age.

I do not think it is fair to compare the pros and cons of early neutering to HCM screening. To me they are different and just part of the considerations of breeders. The fact that a breeder early neuters does not make them ethical or responsible whilst doing it does not also make them irresponsible. I do not believe that you can be completely sure you kittens are going to a home that will not breed from them. The story i said about the enquirer that asked why i do not leave neutering to the discretion of the new owner was more interesting. I had spent a lot of time on this person and was quite annoyed that they sprung this on after i had spent so much time. I informed all the breeders of Tonks i know about them and several breeders had them on their 'lists'. One breeder had taken a deposit for an 8 week old girl though. This breeder asks for vet references and thoroughly checks her kitten buyers out. She was gobsmacked. The buyer knew that they withhold papers until neutering but didn't care. She intended to breed and didn't really care about doing it properley, i got quite a nasty email after she had been removed from several breeders lists and had her deposit refunded. Apparently, i ruined her chance to make some money and so she was going to have to look at other breeds to see what else she liked.

Tonkinese are very prolific callers. My own girls all called from 4 months of age. It can be a real problem. Calling increases their risk of health related issues and also stunts their growth a bit depending on how they cope with calling. My 2 entire Tonks are small compared to my neutered girl. I am seriously going to have to consider neutering my youngest girl if she doesn't grow much more in the next few months. She has just finished her 7th call and she is now 9.5 months. It is a worry. I would be concerned that my girl kittens would be put through this if they were not neutered before they left. I do not sell to 'anybody' and am very particular about who does get a Lilyput baby.

My last litter went for £475. That included neutering, vaccinations, microchip, worming, kitten pack (fairly extensive) and an information pack. Not to mention my support for life. That price seems on the lower end of a lot of Tonk kittens to be honest but i do this because i want to and enjoy it and certainly not to make money, if i recover some of my costs then i am very happy!

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Lollo