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PostPosted: Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:37 pm 
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Bengal Kitten

Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 1:17 pm
Posts: 6
Hi,

I just registered my bengal and got the 5 generation pedigree back from TICA. She was sold to me as a SBT Bengal and that's what it said on her TICA papers, but she has 1 grandparent which is an American Shorthair, and all the generations going back from that grandparent is American Shorthair. I'm a bit confused because I thought SBT meant 4 generations of only bengal to bengal breeding, but my cat is effectively 1/4 American Shorthair and still a SBT bengal?

I've emailed TICA and they said they need to research my cat, but curious if any breeders / experts here know the answer.

Thanks!


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 3:18 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 2:21 pm
Posts: 8742
First of all, congratulations on your baby and for registering her. The bengal breed was started with mating an Asian Leopard Cat with a domestic cat. If you go back farther in your kitties pedigree, you will have Ocicats, Egyptian Mau's, Burmese, Abyssinians, British Shorthairs, American Shorthairs, etc. There is truly no such thing as a PUREBRED bengal, although we refer to them as that. Depending on the F generation of your cat, your baby will have several hundred cats in the complete pedigree.

You have a certified TICA pedigree that shows your kitty is a bengal, plain and simple. The fact that another breed appears in the pedigree is irrelevant. It's the Asian Leopard Cat that matters and your kitty will have SEVERAL ALCs in your kitties pedigree. Your kitty will also have an F generation. The SBT only signifies a Stud Book Tradition which means the cat is at least an F4 generation from the ALC. F3's will have a C3, F2's B2, and F1's A1. Thus, having an American Shorthair as a grandparent is not an issue at all. Your baby is still a bengal. Although most American Shorthairs go farther back in the pedigree. I do know Rowan has used Russellers Silver Dynasty, an American Shorthair as a dam and I have an offspring born in 2015.

I'm probably the expert here on pedigrees and F generations since I have, for the past few years, been compiling a database of bengals and their F generations. And I would love to add your kitty to it.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:01 am 
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Senior Bengal

Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:03 pm
Posts: 88
From this article https://bengalcatclub.com/know-f-ratings-bengal-cats/., it seems to indicate that F2 is also allowed to mix with domestic cat.

So you are right if according to this analogy, due to male EG infertility dilemma, I think that logically F4 Bengals SBT should only mix SBT to produce a 'purebred' Bengal. If a Moggie or DSH is thrown into the mix after F4, rightfully SBT should no longer apply.

Yet here it says otherwise: http://www.auroralights-bengals.com/id75.html - this would IMO be the purest form of bloodline starting from F2 mixing only with other SBTs, i.e the real purebreds. My Xander boy's TICA cert fall under this category.

I am curious what TICA has to say about their official definition of SBT. Do keep us updated.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 4:11 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 2:21 pm
Posts: 8742
Chris, I agree with your analogy. And it is really more rare to have another cat later down the generation, however, Rowan Heretical Dynasty is an F9 with an American Shorthair mom and an F8 bengal father. I don't know that Rowan is even breeding anymore and one member here got a kitten from then that is HCM positive.

As long as the parents are registered, the pedigree continues and the cat can be registered. The breed of the cat appears on the registration and if it says "BENGAL," then TICA recognizes the cat as a bengal. I have not received any pedigree information on this particular cat, so I honestly don't know what it says.

I did a full pedigree on my bengal and there were a LOT of other breeds -- but mostly in the early generations, as you have stated. Gogees Warhawk Of FlyingWFarms (F5) was bred to Little Boogar a Burmese, and that paring appears in most pedigrees.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 08, 2018 8:57 pm 
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Bengal Kitten

Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 1:17 pm
Posts: 6
Thanks everyone. Am I allowed to post the pedigree on here? I'm still a bit confused. My baby is a silver bengal so maybe that's why the AS is in there, for the silver color. But it's bred to a SBT bengal not a F2 etc. So if you have a SBT bengal breed to a SBT american shorthair, why does TICA recognize the resulting cat (my baby's mom) as SBT bengal and not a SBT american shorthair? Or is that something the breeder can choose?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:13 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 2:21 pm
Posts: 8742
You can post the pedigree here as an image. I sent you a PM with my email address, but whatever works for you. The image may not be very large to post in your reply here and I don't believe you can post an image in a private message. If you want to just type your baby's info and the info from the parents (pedigreed names and SBT numbers), I can go from there if I have them in my database. If not, then we need to go farther back.

The International Cat Association is a registrar of cats, plain and simple. As long as the parents are registered anywhere in a registry (there are a few all over the world), they can be included in a pedigree. And as long as there is an Asian Leopard cat that started the pedigree, the cat is a bengal. That is why your baby is NOT a registered American Shorthair.

Getting to view the entire pedigree would help me know more about the grandparents and the generation before that. If the grandparent is an American Shorthair, there has to be at least another one in the generation before that.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:56 pm 
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Senior Bengal

Joined: Wed Feb 15, 2017 6:03 pm
Posts: 88
Mmocha wrote:
Thanks everyone. Am I allowed to post the pedigree on here? I'm still a bit confused. My baby is a silver bengal so maybe that's why the AS is in there, for the silver color. But it's bred to a SBT bengal not a F2 etc. So if you have a SBT bengal breed to a SBT american shorthair, why does TICA recognize the resulting cat (my baby's mom) as SBT bengal and not a SBT american shorthair? Or is that something the breeder can choose?


Alternatively, you can try tracing your parents or grandparents pedigree from https://www.bengal-data.com/. and provide the link here. If they are recorded, it will show full lineage. For those lines which are not, it will show as 'Unknown'.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 5:26 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 2:21 pm
Posts: 8742
Unfortunately, a lot of their cats do not show up for various reasons. Very frustrating to check a pedigree and it says "unknown." My bengal's grandparents on his dad's side are not listed, although the remainder of the cats are. Thankfully, there are other databases to check and I have the TICA 5-generation pedigree for my bengal.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:27 pm 
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Bengal Kitten

Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 1:17 pm
Posts: 6
Here is her pedigree

https://imgur.com/a/GC0YFbX


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 1:54 am 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 2:21 pm
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PleasantPond is using the American Shorthair to enhance their silver lines. The outcross kittens will carry a TICA registration prefix of AON and they will be registered as bengals. That didn't happen on the pedigree as PleasantPond Sophira is listed as an SBT bengal.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:10 am 
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Bengal Kitten

Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 1:17 pm
Posts: 6
Interesting... so TICA made a mistake registering the mom as SBT?


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:58 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 2:21 pm
Posts: 8742
Mistakes can be made by anyone. I'm not sure what happened here. Hopefully, TICA will get back to you. Any time there is an off breed used, the offspring start off with an A letter, their offspring have a B and their offspring have a C and then it goes to SBT. Your kitten is a a bengal and that's basically all that matters.

There are breeders experimenting -- one is creating a red bengal as well as torbies. I personally think it takes away from the bengal breed. The new pancake and elongated rosetting is beautiful, but it certainly is nothing like the Asian Leopard cat. Kudos to breeders who want to stick with that wild pattern.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:59 am 
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Bengal Kitten

Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 1:17 pm
Posts: 6
Just heard back from TICA, they corrected the mom to AON and my cat to BON. Also added a note under "Color" that said "Not eligible for CH competition". Oh well...


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:25 pm 
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Asian Leopard Cat

Joined: Thu May 23, 2013 2:21 pm
Posts: 8742
It was good of TICA to get back with you and correct the information. Their database is not perfect by any means.I do not believe any of the AON, BON or CONs eligible for show competitions.


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